Very serious problem in the reborn world

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Brooke
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by Brooke »

I notice in all her verbage she says "WE" when it comes to making the dolls. Like in "we paint" or "we root" or "our babies", etc. Does this mean she doesn't make them herself but has a bunch of people working with/for her?
I wonder how long she has been in the reborn making world. I'll bet not long because she is not a very good reborner. And her eyebrows are terrible.
Anyway, there are still over 300K "reborn" dolls listed on Ebay, so they must not be deleting everything yet.
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HunnyBunMama_Steph
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by HunnyBunMama_Steph »

JudyP wrote:
I agree, it would definitely be nice in the mean time for us to know what words we can use to list so that we don't take a chance of getting our auctions cancelled. :(
Hugs,
Judy
Tricky question. Here is one perspective:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... fringement
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CarlaKH
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by CarlaKH »

It's sort of like saying Kleenex instead of saying facial tissue. It's just a shame that these dolls took on the term reborn instead of a term that didn't have the whole baggage of religious experience or the whole born verses made or created or crafted. At the end of the day, they are just dolls. Its weird how eBay would do anything that would potentially cut them out of the enormous cut of money they make on each of these transactions :lol: :headspin:
Suzanne wrote:
CarlaKH wrote:How bizarre! I wish personally we would stop using the word REBORN for dolls. I think the name is not really appropriate... they aren't born and certainly not re-born. The term has too many religious connotations and really does not reflect the artistry that goes into the dolls. Dolls are not born - they are created or made. They aren't brought to life, they are inanimate objects that people enjoy collecting and "playing" with. I love my dolls but tend to use the term custom doll when discussing them or showing them to people other than dollfan.
it really dosent matter what we want to start calling them.. they are known as reborns and will continue to be known as reborns. I don't like the word "lotion" and I could start just calling it body cream but it will always be called lotion... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: ..
Carla in Canada
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Mikki
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by Mikki »

Sad that one person could do some much harms to so many...
Reborning is an art form and the act of reborning...how can they trademark that?

Mikki

[edit by Steve]Grandaughters creation need to go elsewhere...lets please keep this on topic[/edit]
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JudyP
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by JudyP »

HunnyBunMama*Steph wrote:
JudyP wrote:
I agree, it would definitely be nice in the mean time for us to know what words we can use to list so that we don't take a chance of getting our auctions cancelled. :(
Hugs,
Judy
Tricky question. Here is one perspective:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/ ... fringement
Thanks Steph! Wow .....so where do we go from here? What about us Reborn Artists who only sell on ebay. Does this mean we are done? What is eBay saying?
Hugs,
Judy
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by HunnyBunMama_Steph »

Judy,

Right now, she has the rule of law on her side. She has a trademark, even if illegitimately gained. She can defend that TM any way she sees fit until it is overturned. She has chosen Etsy and eBay because they are easy pickin's. I don't know about Etsy, but I do know eBay uses the VeRO program which is software algorithms set to detect a certain word or string of words. It's a human-less process. It's easy to google and find many people who believe eBay and VeRO are corrupt, ridiculous and should be revamped, but...we must work with what we have.

I'm not the attorney, and not speaking for him at this time, so I can only advise you to do your own research about using another person's trademark in your auctions. To my knowledge she has not attempted to prosecute anyone with a website, yet. Think about the enormity of that! A separate lawsuit filed against every reborn artist in the USA. Yeah...I don't think so.

That's why I say eBay and Etsy are easy pickins and that's where she is doing the most damage. I'm not even sure all reborn doll auctions are currently affected, but that might just be a matter of time. I think the way VeRO works is eventually they do scan all auctions and eventually they will catch up with you. She may also be scrolling through and reporting them individually too, we don't know. Try coming up with some creative ways to market your dolls and be sure to use the proper category to list them in. Reborn Dolls is still how people are going to find your auctions when they search. She hasn't had eBay pull that category for TM infringement!
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by HunnyBunMama_Steph »

You asked What is Ebay saying? I had two muddled conversations with 2 separate CSR's yesterday and I could barely understand a word they said. They gave me the VeRO email address and told me to contact them. That's what I've done, and have not heard back yet. I'll let you know when I do.
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Suzanne
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by Suzanne »

Have you seen how many trademarks there are with the word reborn??????? There are 50 and in various industries.. so why has this never been an issue before? And she only uses REBORN so we can use REBORNED baby doll..
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by chelle77 »

Suzanne wrote:Have you seen how many trademarks there are with the word reborn??????? There are 50 and in various industries.. so why has this never been an issue before? And she only uses REBORN so we can use REBORNED baby doll..
Nice catch!!
I'll bet we could use that especially if coupled with Reborned art baby or something like that
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JudyP
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by JudyP »

HunnyBunMama*Steph wrote:Judy,

Right now, she has the rule of law on her side. She has a trademark, even if illegitimately gained. She can defend that TM any way she sees fit until it is overturned. She has chosen Etsy and eBay because they are easy pickin's. I don't know about Etsy, but I do know eBay uses the VeRO program which is software algorithms set to detect a certain word or string of words. It's a human-less process. It's easy to google and find many people who believe eBay and VeRO are corrupt, ridiculous and should be revamped, but...we must work with what we have.

I'm not the attorney, and not speaking for him at this time, so I can only advise you to do your own research about using another person's trademark in your auctions. To my knowledge she has not attempted to prosecute anyone with a website, yet. Think about the enormity of that! A separate lawsuit filed against every reborn artist in the USA. Yeah...I don't think so.

That's why I say eBay and Etsy are easy pickins and that's where she is doing the most damage. I'm not even sure all reborn doll auctions are currently affected, but that might just be a matter of time. I think the way VeRO works is eventually they do scan all auctions and eventually they will catch up with you. She may also be scrolling through and reporting them individually too, we don't know. Try coming up with some creative ways to market your dolls and be sure to use the proper category to list them in. Reborn Dolls is still how people are going to find your auctions when they search. She hasn't had eBay pull that category for TM infringement!
Thanks Steph and thanks for speaking with eBay. Please keep us informed of what you find out.
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tiffanybw
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by tiffanybw »

I don't understand at all why a person would do such a thing as this. Being that the trademarks only apply to the USA, it obviously isn't like she says (the woman who did the trademarks and initiated all this)... to stop the baby counterfeiters in China. They can still use the word "reborn" to their heart's delight.

After reading all these posts, I don't understand how eBay is any longer even allowed to have a "reborn dolls" category. I mean, it's how I search when I go to eBay, to dolls and bears, then to dolls, then to reborn dolls. Seems to me that people who put the dolls up for auction under the "reborn dolls" category, and they are having their auctions taken down for having the term "reborn doll" in their auction... Yet there exists an entire catogory on eBay listed as "reborn dolls, reborn accessories, reborn clothing, etc..." And so seems if this trademark this woman has is a valid one, well then eBay is going to have to delete the entire category... because there are only "reborn dolls" under the reborn doll category. But... so far seems that the category is allowed to stand, but the specific individuals auctioning can't use the term "reborn".

There are many losing out, including eBay. One would think eBay, being how much money they make off of all items under the "reborn" category... that they would be, or at least should be, even that much more vested than WE are in all of this. I'd also imagine that if eBay got on board with us to overturn this crazy woman's trademarks (general and generic terms that have been used for over 20 years now that suddenly this woman just claims to "OWN"); just that eBay with all of it's $$$$ could squash this pretty quick if they wanted to.

Just think about it! These terms this woman has copyrighted... and everyone who uses them... So I guess now that people like Romie Strydom, Laura Lee Eagles, all sculpters, painters, rooters, all people who sell mohair, sellers who manufacture the paint, the eyes; and all people who make specialty clothing for reborn dolls... ALL of them, all of us... work for this woman now. This woman who just went into business in 2015; this woman who makes reborn baby dolls that are not the absolute worst I've ever seen, but come pretty close. Just speaking honestly and as a collector and not an artist... They are pretty bad. The painting is mediocre at best. The eyebrows stick out like a sore thumb and are seriously horrible.

If these are the new "reborn baby dolls", I want nothing to do with them. I signed the petition and donated, but I say that in the meantime we should come up with our own name and run with it. I'm pretty new, but seems to me the reborn community is a pretty tight knit group of people, collectors, artists, sculptors. It's kind of drawn me even more to collecting the babies I do, because in many ways seems like a family. So why not coin our own name to call these dolls, custom art babies or whatever is decided; and then spread the word and the community as a whole can just change the terminology and go from here? From what I know of the reborn community, word would spread quickly. Abandon the old terminology and embrace the new. Except this time some legal action should be taken by the International Association of Doll Artists or whomever would be the ones to do it... So that something like this doesn't happen again.

Do that, and before you know it, the only "reborn baby dolls" will be by this woman. And... no offense to her because not trying to be mean... but good luck with that lady and have fun with your original reborns because I seriously doubt you will sell any of them.

Just my thoughts and I'm no legal professional or business wizard. But why not beat this woman at her own game? Let her keep her trademark and NO ONE use "reborn" anymore. Take the eBay auctions down and put them under collectibles or dolls and bears but not under "reborn". Then when going to reborn, there will be this woman's dolls and the ones from China. Hope she has fun with that. Use the money that has been collected to give to the International Association of Doll Artists so that they can create a name for these precious babies, can use the money collected to legally copyright it, and solves the problem of fake dolls from China and other places, and also solves the problem of this woman just swooping in and trying to capitalize and make personal profit off of all the hardworking sculptors, artists, mohair and paint manufacturers, clothing manufacturers, and everyone else involved in the reborn community. Artists, clothing makers, sculptors, etc... International Association of Doll Artists can charge a small fee to join them (just like this forum does), and then we all can do with our own individual talents whatever we want, won't have to "work for" or be beholden to any particular individual person (this one is more for the sculptors and artists), and won't have to worry of being scammed as much as we do now (to the benefit of both artists and collectors) as the international association of doll artists will take care of everything (being that copyrights are under their name and paid for by all of us; the reborn community) and make sure only reputable people can join and kick out those inevitable people who come along and try to scam. We would have our own copyrights from the get go with no one person making a profit off of the trademark. Also, scammers (i.e. fakes from China) would not be allowed to join and if there would be a known scammer identified they would be kicked out from membership.

Just thinking that if everyone can come together to donate for the lawyer than why not everyone come on board together to do this? Time for change, and time for a new name for this not so new art form ( in which seems plenty try and scam, to copy, to steal, to misrepresent what they are selling, and to now try and coin generic phrases that have been used for two decades and trademark them, etc... All of it to try and make money off of for individual personal gain and not for what it was meant to be for; for the one of a kind beauty, the art, the precious thing that is new life which we ALL understand is not actual new life but is a representation there of and it's own each individual and one of a kind art form, the same in category but very different when it comes to each baby made as no 2 are alike. Even when 10 artists each paint the same sculpt they all turn out very individual and different and it is just something that can not be copyrighted). Also time to put an end to all the scammers out there! Again, I'm no expert but maybe it is time for all of us who make up all the different parts and facets of this reborn community to put a stop to the bad that goes on and to come together.
10513

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Pebby
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by Pebby »

chelle77 wrote:
Suzanne wrote:Have you seen how many trademarks there are with the word reborn??????? There are 50 and in various industries.. so why has this never been an issue before? And she only uses REBORN so we can use REBORNED baby doll..
Nice catch!!
I'll bet we could use that especially if coupled with Reborned art baby or something like that

I like that name Chelle,I am going to try it with my new listing , see how it goes.
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by Sandis Doll House »

I'm sure it will be overturned. i spoke with an attorney friend and she said that you cannot put a trademark on a generic word. That would be like me trying to trade mark the word "sewing" because I sew for doll artists. I just cannot for the life of me understand her motive. She is a mediocre doll artist and that's me trying to be nice.
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by MichelleRebornMama »

What about "reborn baby doll" tags on YouTube videos? This is a nightmare!!! I'm not an artist, but I am a collector and lately when I have been searching for reborn dolls on eBay, not many listings show up, whereas there used to be thousands. I thought it was just a glitch with eBay, but now I am wondering if it is an implication of this trademark fiasco..
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by safcfootienut_Jo »

Not sure if it has been mentioned here but apparently the trademark is available for sale.

Jo in the UK
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by dollyknits max »

I hope she surrenders it, as i don't think any one would buy it.
Thanks for showing this Jo.
hugs max xxx
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by MichelleRebornMama »

"Sell it for a price" though she claims to have gotten the trademark as a service to the reborn community.. it's all about money apparently... that's "extortion"
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by Pebby »

deleted, this is crazy
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by Brooke »

Just to clarify, it is a "trademak", not a "copyright". Very different beasts. If thousands of different artists paint the same kit each will be different, and each artist will have an "implied copyright" on their creation. There can never ever be an exact copy of an original piece of art. It's just not possible. So if someone copies a Monet painting it can legally be signed and sold as "John Doe after Monet", but can never be sold as an original Monet. Reborn sculptors have an implied copyright on their sculpts and that's why the Chinese knockoffs are illegal.
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Re: Very serious problem in the reborn world

Post by georgeanne »

:D
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